Forum:Group Project/Organization

Start-General-Vocabulary-Organization-Innovations

I propose we create a proper project page, so that we can keep track of the progress. This page is getting overloaded and we have just started the language. I will create a regular page for it, so we can get started. Main discussion continues here, however. Panglossa | Talk 01:35, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

I would like to have done that sooner, but I wasn't sure what to name it o_0 Razlem 01:45, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

Done, I named it the same as the Forum page, only without the "Forum:" prefix:


 * Group Project

Later on we can change it, maybe when we decide a name for the language. I guess we should decide that only after the phonology is established. Panglossa | Talk 01:51, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

Dictionary
Since this language will revolve around changing the last medial vowel, we should create a dictionary of roots in the example format: "gel-l", where "-" is the identifying vowel. Razlem 17:50, June 13, 2010 (UTC)

Better not. Say we have our word gelol/gelyl meaning "soup," then what does gelal mean? You can't tell it means "to drink soup." —Detectivekenny; (Info) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 21:52, June 13, 2010 (UTC)

I can tell that gelyl means "soup", gelal means "to soup" (which one would understand to be 'to make something into soup' or 'soupify'), and gelil means "soupy". As in Esperanto, teatro means theatre, teatra means theatrical, teatre means theatrically, teatras means "to theatre" (which one would understand as 'to make like a theatre' or 'theaterize'). Yet the only form in the Esperanto dictionary is "teatr". It would be inefficient to include every possible form in the dictionary. Razlem 02:41, June 14, 2010 (UTC)

You would have an Esperanto dictionary. Lol why not just include the verb form. The verb form is always weird in relation to the noun. Like kanti and kanto. Kanti, means "to sing" and what do you sing? You sing a song. Paroli and parolo? What do you say? You say a parolo. But what do you vidi? You don't vidi a vido. Hence the esperanta system doesn't work, 'specially for non-Europeans. We should clarify that gelyl should come from the root "gelal" meaning "to drink soup." To soupify could be gelylat or some other suffix. —Detectivekenny; (Info) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 15:57, June 14, 2010 (UTC)

Assuming "vidi" means "to see", you can in fact see a sight. It is rare that one can use all forms of the root. Esperanto has the root "leg" meaning "read". "Legi" means to read, but "lego, lega, and lege" are not used. Since you can't "soup" something in any language, it would be illogical to use the verb form "gelal". Instead use the example root "baan-ng"-drink- "baanang gelyl". Razlem 17:31, June 14, 2010 (UTC)

Here's your Anglocentricity again. Who says you can't soup something in any language? Sure, it's not any language I know, but still… Why not base "gelyl" off a verb? Instead of basing everything off the noun "gelyl," which yields nothing for "gelal," why not have a verb "gelal," "to drink soup" that yields gelyl: soup, gelil: drinking soup, gelylil: relating to soup, gelel: while drinking soup, etc. And from baan-ng we could have baanong meaning "a drink, something to drink." We could do that for every food. "Maa" could mean "to eat rice" and thus we have "moo": rice, etc. Because naturally, you can take a noun coming from a verb to mean "something you can VERB" but a noun to a verb is so much more irregular, it's best to start from a noun. An English speaker might interpret Esperanta "suki" to mean "to make into juice" but another might interpret it as "to drink juice." With my system, going off verbs, there is a lot more regularity. —Detectivekenny; (Info) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 19:04, June 14, 2010 (UTC)

It's hardly Anglocentric. I'm suggesting that each word be based on an empty root "gel-l", which approximately translates to "having to do with some soup-like substance", but has no meaning until a vowel is added. The root itself does not mean the noun "soup." Your suffix for gelyl "gelylil" conflicts with the medial vowel identification. If "maa" is "eat rice", then how would one say "grow rice" or "cook rice" or "use rice"? Would there be different words, and more derivatives, for each? Razlem 20:14, June 14, 2010 (UTC)

No. That's not what I'm saying. If we use your approach, then it would be crazy for stuff that actually is a verb. You are making too thick a line betwen nouns and verbs. Say we have the verb "kigpaan" meaning "to swim." Then what would you write in the dictionary? Like I said, we should write everything in terms of verbs. Say "maa" means "eat rice." That automatically implies that "moo" means rice. To grow rice might be "Simja moo" with "simja" meaning "to grow" and then cook rice would be "ala moo." If we base our language on verbs, we can practically double our vocabulary. I mean sure if we want to incorporate the verb "konlaang" meaning "to conlang" we already have the noun "konlyyng" meaning "a conlang." But if we insert the dictionary word "konl--ng" meaning "relating to conlangs" then where do we get the nouns?

Here, lemme retierate my system. Take any verb, say nguupar meaning "to search for." The root is nguup-r. Now then "nguupyr" must then be "something artificial that you search for." Then "nguupor" is "something natural you search for." Nguupir is "searching for something" as an adjective. To get "a search for something" you make the word nguuparo. There is no ambiguity.

But with your system we have this. Nguup-r meaning "something to do with a search." Nguupor means "a search for something." Nguupar, nguupir, nguuper, are all like wha? Chinese people will die right here I tell you. There's absolutely no way to tell that "nguupar" means "to search." A Chinese person who didn't speak English might say "you mean like making something into a search?"

Screw the Esperanto system. We're trying to be more derivational here. And our system is much different anyway. —Detectivekenny; (Info) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 20:50, June 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * Your system is very strange. There's no way to tell that "maa" means "eat rice", and does that mean that the verb "to eat" does not exist? Would you "maa moo" or just "maa"? Also, you misinterpreted my system, which is "having", not "something" which indicates a noun.

If Nguup-r means "having to do with a search", then logically,

Noun + having to do with a search = a search

Verb + having to do with a search = to make something like a search (yes, this is in fact what it means) or simply, to search

Adjective + having to do with a search = having to do with a search or like a search

Adverb + having to do with a search = (to do something) like a search

Razlem 23:50, June 14, 2010 (UTC)

It's not strange. The reason we know "maa" means "to eat rice" is because that's the definition! Hence "moo" follows as so:

to eat rice + noun = something you eat (rice) = rice

to eat rice + verb = to eat rice

to eat rice + adjective = to eat rice + verb + adjective = eating rice

to eat rice + adverb = eating rice

to eat rice + noun + adjective = relating to rice

to eat rice + (act of) + adjective = relating to the consumption of rice

Notice how we get a lot more out of one root and notice how it's a lot more specific and unambiguous.

to search + noun = something you search for

to search + verb = to search

to search + adjective = to search + verb + adjective = searching

to search + adverb = searchingly

to search + (act of) = a search

I want you to read this essay, which shows the reason I choose it to be this way. Note how it mentions why roots should be based on verbs rather than nouns. http://www.eskimo.com/~ram/vocabulary_design.html —Detectivekenny; (Info) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 01:31, June 15, 2010 (UTC)

I don't believe that is correct. Your adverb form is actually an adverbial clause, which itself is closer to a prepositional phrase than an actual adverb. "He ran (while) eating rice". "Eating rice" does not describe in what manner he "ran" the way "quickly" would. Also, "to eat rice + noun" to me means "the action of eating rice", and not "rice" itself.

If maa means to eat rice, then simjumaa means to grow rice, alumaa means to cook rice, and each would have a complete set of derivatives (and would "kompjutar" mean to eat computers?) This is a great idea if you want an elaborate natlang, but for an auxlang, a smaller vocabulary is better. It would be much more efficient just to have a separate verb for eat "jad" and not use the verb form of "moo".

And what about simple adjectives such as "green" or nouns such as "house". You can build a house, but you can also build a building or a shed or a machine. To have separate verbs for each of those is very inefficient for an auxlang.

So instead of:

maa

derivative

derivative

derivative

...

simjumaa

derivative

...

alumaa

...

Just have:

jad moo

simja moo

ala moo

Razlem 03:11, June 15, 2010 (UTC)

Look. First of all, my use of adverbs is correct, as it parallels the usage in Chinese. Why not increase flexbility by following their method rather than limiting ourselves with Eurocentricity.

Computer would come from the verb "komputaar" meaning "to use a computer," thus making komputyyr a computer. (on a side note, look how convenient the adverb komputeer becomes. I typed that up komputeer. I komputeer sent you an e-mail.)

House would come from the verb "epaal" meaning "to live" thus making epyyl somewhere you live.

Green comes from the verb "fajhaat" meaning "to be green," and since it is intransitive, "fajhoot" would be "something green." To get the word for "green" you would have to say "falhiit noos," green colour. —Detectivekenny; (Info) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 13:37, June 15, 2010 (UTC)

Derivation (Continued)
What your system gains in flexibility, it loses in regularity, which is the core of any auxlang.

All of this can be said just as easily with the other system.

fajh--t (means nothing, but the derivations will pertain to green)

fajhaat (the meaning is based on context, can either be "to make green" or "to be green")

fajhyyt (something artificial that is green)

fajhoot (something natural that is green)

fajheet ('to do something' in a green manner)

fajhiit (like green, or simply, green)

In addition, there are the example roots "l-" "be", and "t-" "make", so you have the option of saying "ta fajhiit" or "la fajhiit" to decrease ambiguity.

In total I have 3 roots, fajh--t, l-, t-, and about 15 derivations. Compare that to your system, which would require a separate word for "make green" and "be green", as well as the words for "be" and "make"- 4 roots total, about 20 derivations, and possibly 8 semantic repeats (art noun, nat noun, adv, and adj).

We can't have a Sinocentric system, and this is not Eurocentric. The Chinese derivation system is highly idiosyncratic, plus you wind up with many forms of the same word. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it does not fit with an auxlang.

Razlem 15:08, June 15, 2010 (UTC)

How can I get this across to you. It's not idiosyncratic, and it's not Sinocentric. What you're giving me is an arbitrary system. Completely arbitrary, do you realize that? This is because you are trying to distinguish parts of speech. You are acting like fajhiit, green, is the main form of the word, and as well you are not including that in the dictionary. In my system, we could have the verb jan, meanin "to cause." Thus you could say jan fajhaat (in infinitive form lol which we haven't decided), and furthermore you could say jan komputaar or jan maa.

Just look past the end of your nose, your country, your culture, your language, etc. Some Europeans may find your derivational system logical but in reality there's nothing logical about it. You expect there to magically arise a verb. "To be green" is TOTALLY ARBITRARY believe it or not, and it would confuse easterners beyond comprehension. Same with "TO SEARCH" "TO MAKE INTO RICE," ETC. I have no idea about your agruments. They're absolute nonsense. Just reread my system already and stop being so Anglocentric/arbitrary. —Detectivekenny; (Info) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 15:33, June 15, 2010 (UTC)

You're correct, it is arbitrary. But your system is no less. Say you have the word "tal" meaning "to grow (plant) a seed" with "tol" meaning seed. Many seeds can also be eaten, but you can't use "tal" for "eat seeds", you'd have to use "jad tol". But for some reason, you can't "jad moo", you just "maa". You can't use "maa" for "grow rice", you'd have to use "simja moo". Now you have two words "simja, tal" which both mean "to grow" something. Now say you have "kyja" to cook dinner, with "kyjy" meaning dinner. To eat dinner, you can't kyja. If you create another verb for "to eat dinner"- "kuula", you'd wind up with two forms of the exact same word "dinner" (kuuly, kyjy). Not to mention people in India would go nuts if "tor" (cow/beef) came from "tar" (to eat cow/beef) lol.

The main meaning would be in the dictionary in this format:

al-: cook

fajh--t: green

gel-l: soup

m--: rice

j-d: eat

kyj-: dinner

l-: be

t-: make

t-r: cow

None of these roots mean anything by their empty selves, and it's going to be impossible to use every single medial vowel (what does "tur" or "alu" mean, if "u" is miscellaneous?)

It seems like it's impossible to make this easy for Easterners (who, from what I'm gathering, don't use parts of speech, at least not in the same manner as Europeans?). In that case, neither of our systems would work. And I know for a fact that the Arabic and Hindi speaking population (totalling about 650 million) would have trouble with these systems as well. To be regular would be inefficient, to be efficient would be irregular. Hooray for snags... Perhaps we should conduct a poll to see which system people would have the least trouble with, here on Conlangs. It's not going to decide anything, and it will most likely be biased towards an Esperanta system, but just for shits and giggles :P

By the way, where the hell is Panglossa? Is he not interested in the project anymore? I miss his input :(

Razlem 20:03, June 15, 2010 (UTC)

This is the third time I have to type this dang thing up because of technical difficulties so bear with me. My system is neither arbitrary, irregular, or inefficient. I'll show you with a dictionary. But first I'll just clarify that yes "jad moo" is perfectly grammatical, but "maa" is much more efficient.

ala: to cook fajhaat: to be green gelal: to drink soup maa: to eat rice jad: to eat kyja: to eat dinner tar: to see a cow

In common practice it would be shortened to:

al-: cook fajh--t: be green gel-l: drink soup m--: eat rice j-d: eat kyj-: eat dinner t-r: see cow

Notice how unlike in your dictionary, my dictionary tells you everything you need with the definition, including all forms. With yours, the verb form is usually arbitrary. But I bet you my system works all the time unquestionably, and unarbitrarily. For example, we already have the nouns:

alo: something you cook (cooked food or food that can be cooked) fajhoot: something green gel-l: soup m--: rice j-d: something you eat kyj-: dinner t-r: cow

And that's with no ambiguity, I guarantee you. Give me one verb where my system doesn't work and I'll reconsider. —Detectivekenny; (Info) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 22:10, June 15, 2010 (UTC)

The decision to make "maa" "eat rice" is totally arbitrary. Rice is grown more than eaten, so shouldn't the default definition be "grow rice" instead? Cows are most certainly eaten more than seen, and dinner is cooked before eaten.

This is my main issue: why do you have a word mean "eat X" when a word for "eat" already exists? Same with "grow", "see", or "be".

Here's your irregularity:

Since "fajhoot" means "something that is green", that requires "tor" to be "something that sees cows" rather than "cow", and "jod" to be "something that eats" rather than "something to be eaten."

To fix this, "tar" would have to be "be a cow", and "jad"- "to be eaten". All verbs would have to "be."

Razlem 01:29, June 16, 2010 (UTC)

1) well, I'm just suggesting what would be more practical. In the case with rice, a Chinese parent would tell their child "maa" in the imperative form several times daily. That's my idea for foods. For animals, seeing is the best keeping in mind the needs of hunters. "To be a cow" would be unnecessary because if this is a pro-drop language, you wouldn't even need to change it to a verb. Sure it's arbitrary when making the language, but it makes a lot more sense than "tar" meaning "to make into a cow" lol. And besides, a language learner would hardly find the system arbitrary if they just memorize the verbs as they appear in the dictionary. And on eating cows, I would use "bistor" for beef, and the tricky part is "bistar" is "to eat beef." Bis- would be a prefix making something into meat.

2) It's not an irregularity. I use the subject for intransitive verbs. I like ergativity… —Detectivekenny; (Info) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 01:44, June 16, 2010 (UTC)

That would be defending an irregularity- "just memorize it"

Your system can not work regularly. Even if every word was "to be X", how would you say "cook", or "grow" or "eat"?

Again, since fajhoot means "something that is green", then moo must mean "something that is rice", and not "something that eats rice," as your current system implies.

In my system, "tar" would simply not be used. You would use "la tor" for "be a cow."

Razlem 02:15, June 16, 2010 (UTC)

"just memorize it" is not defending irregularity. It's no harder to memorize "to eat rice" as a definition of "maa" than to memorize "moo" as "rice." With my system, there is no irregularity outside the dictionary. If you have a dictionary and a short guide to Terran grammar, you can speak Terran. But with your system, you basically have to memorize all the forms of a word due to arbitrarity.

Once again, you are drawing lines between parts of speech. At that point, there's no regularity.

Yes. Moo does mean "something that is rice." "Something that eats rice" would be mii ho, eating-rice something. —Detectivekenny; (Info) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 14:49, June 16, 2010 (UTC)

So maa must mean "be rice" if moo is "something that be (is) rice"Razlem 17:20, June 16, 2010 (UTC)

No… You don't derive the verb from the noun, you derive the noun from the verb… how many times do I have to repeat myself?

Transitive verb (xax):

xox-something you xax

xyx-something artificial you xax

xix-xaxing

xex-xaxingly

intransitive verb (xaax):

xoox-something that xaaxes

xyyx-something artificial that xaxes

xiix-xaxing

xex-xaxingly —Detectivekenny; (Info) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 17:41, June 16, 2010 (UTC)

Fajhoot must be "something you are green" rather than "something that is green" then, since the verb "to be" in that case is transitive.

Your system (if it were regular):

XXXa - "to verb X" (also the dictionary form)

XXXo - "noun that verbs X"

XXXe- "(to do something) (while) verbing X"

YYYa- "to be Y"

YYYo- "something that is Y"

YYYe- "(to do something) (while) being Y"

ZZZa - "to eat Z"

ZZZo- "something that eats Z"

ZZZe- "(to do something) (while) eating Z"

AAAa- "to see A"

AAAo- "something that sees A"

AAAe- "(to do something) (while) seeing A"

Do you see? If maa is "eat rice", then moo is logically "something that eats rice". If you want moo to be "something that is rice", then you must make maa "be rice".

My system:

Dictionary Form: "XXX-: X"

XXXa- "to X" (transitive or intransitive)

XXXo- "noun that is X"

XXXe- "(to verb)in an X manner"

YYYa- "to green" (available, but isn't used unless you actually can "green" something)

YYYo- "something that is green"

YYYe- "(to do something) in a green manner"

ZZZa- "to eat" (You can use this verb to say "I eat." or "I eat food."

ZZZo- "something that is eat" (available, but isn't used unless something can be an "eat"; not something "that is eaten")

ZZZe- "(to do something) in an eat manner" (available, but isn't used unless you can do something "eatly")

AAAa- "to bread" (can be used, since you can "bread" things in Russian, Arabic, English, Spanish, and Swahili)

AAAo "something that is bread" (not something "that is breaded")

AAAe- "(to do something) in a bread manner" (available, but isn't used unless you can do something "breadly")

Razlem 18:23, June 16, 2010 (UTC)

Why the phở do you change my system? Not only do you obviously not understand my system, but you edit my system and then tell me it's irregular. This is why I'm so dang angry. And did you even read my essay?

XXXa - "to verb" (also the dictionary form)

XXXo - "something which is verbed"

XXXe- "(to do something) (while) verbing anything"

The copula would be a "joining verb" which we will discuss later. I don't want to bring those into the system. Other verbs like that are "to marry," "to meet," "to be like," etc.

ZZZa - "to eat Z"

ZZZo- "Z"

ZZZe- "(to do something) (while) eating Z" —Detectivekenny; (Info ) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 18:43, June 16, 2010 (UTC)

"To be green" is not transitive. You can't be-green something. It's technically equivalent to Mandarin verbs, where you use "green" as a verb in the sentence wo lu se de (I green). —Detectivekenny; (Info) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 18:49, June 16, 2010 (UTC)

In "X is green", "is" is transitive copulative.

Did you read the little part that said "if it were regular"? It was in italics. I know your system is not that way. Razlem 18:54, June 16, 2010 (UTC)

……………………………………………………Several things wrong.

1) "is" in that sense is not copulative. It's just a helping verb Europeans for some reason have to have.

2) "is" is transitive yes. But I mean the whole dang phrase "be green" is not transitive. Get out of your stupid Anglobubble already.

3) What do you mean "if it were regular"? You just changed EVERY DANG VERB to make it regular in another way, but that way is NOT MY WAY.

4) With your stupid American Mensa membership, you're still not right. It was perfectly regular, JUST A BIT ERGATIVE. If you don't know what that means, which I have a feeling you don't, look it up on Wikipedia, because there's your definition.

5) Can you read logic?

subjoct varb(trans) objoct: vorb=dysjunction of all possible values of objoct

subjoct varb(intrans): vorb=dysjunction of all possible values of subjoct —Detectivekenny; (Info) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 19:32, June 16, 2010 (UTC)

For the sake of argument, let's say you're right.

Remind me again why my system can't work?

Insults are unnecessary, please control your anger. Razlem 20:18, June 16, 2010 (UTC)