User talk:EmperorZelos

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 * Synjômenwenâ Leñâmyþend.


 * Kwâêrond âmnewynnÿeþ Dysênel kwâtwân hir Sôemsymonólel, sonlâ yponônwenâ Kwâêrend Lyþênyþveyl Arasânyþþond.


 * Thanks a bunch. vii

New
Hey there!

I'm new in this conlang page (about 10 minutes old - an infant, you see...), but I'm not really THAT new to the whole "Conlang" idea. I know (through studying linguistics) about languages. I know about how to create one in mind or on paper: grammar, vocabulary, syntax, morphophonology et cetera... What I don't know of is how to guide myself through this WikiPage. I could really use some help in that department.

Thanks in advance

~ The Glossophile ~


 * Youre so new your umbilical cord hasnt been cut yet XP Joking aside. I will gladly help you, what is it you need help with more exacly? The Emperor Zelos 06:38, September 9, 2010 (UTC)

Well...

I'm kinda trying to choose the "create a language" box

(but it doesn't really show me the way into it) and there

is no introduction page to help move around this wiki (at

least I didn't find any) and once I getthere what DO I do?

How do I create the charts? Is it MY choice or the page

has its own programme for that? See what I mean? ^_^

By the way... Thanks for the signature issue! :)

The Glossophile 12:45, September 9, 2010 (UTC)

If you click on it you see the front page where there is an area you can fill out the name of your conlang and press create, once done you'll have a page created with suggestions of things and if you want general help on layout my stuff is usually good place to look.

The charts are self created but again I suggest you use a style similar to those of mine. The Emperor Zelos 13:10, September 9, 2010 (UTC)

Oh, ok! Thanks!

I've already started... I'm a bit puzzled right now, but I hope

I can get the hang of it. Thanks for the help! :)

The Glossophile 13:29, September 9, 2010 (UTC)

Youre welcome, always come if you got an answer and I respond as quickly as I can, feel free to got o my page Umbrean and copy coding from it The Emperor Zelos 13:43, September 9, 2010 (UTC)

Hey there! Explain this to me, will you?

What exactly is this "moving" thing and why did you do it in the first place?

The Glossophile 07:11, September 12, 2010 (UTC)

Move simply means name/location change, nothing is lost.

I did it because i agree "Unnamed" fits better under your username until you decied a name

That's what I guessed... Thanks! :)

It's good to know I have the copyrights.

The Glossophile 16:32, September 12, 2010 (UTC) Copyright? o_ô The Emperor Zelos 16:33, September 12, 2010 (UTC)



So to speak... Just a recognition from the group that I was the one


 * creating this (potential) language. It wouldn't be fair to anyone if their


 * work on their languages was lost or "stolen" by someone else!


 * The Glossophile 16:38, September 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * You are entitled to it as your creation but anyone can still take any part of it, I found on a page here on the wiki an old construct I no longer used someone had decieded to use The Emperor Zelos 16:41, September 12, 2010 (UTC)

Well yes... if they're abandoned by their original conlangers, I think its ok!

But if they're under construction by someone... It wouldn't be fair. The Glossophile 16:48, September 12, 2010 (UTC)

On a wiki anything is up for grabbing, we just show each other more respect on a general notion though =)

That's what I wanted to hear! :)

The Glossophile 16:55, September 12, 2010 (UTC)

Conlang Word Creator
Hey! Do you happen to know any good word creator machines (for conlangs) in the web? The Glossophile 03:17, September 14, 2010 (UTC)

Yes The Emperor Zelos 06:11, September 14, 2010 (UTC)

Care to share it? :P The Glossophile 06:46, September 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * P I cnat rememebr the link The Emperor Zelos 06:55, September 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * got a mail or anything? The Emperor Zelos 11:13, September 14, 2010 (UTC)

yeah, it's charmak69@hotmail.com

thanks for the help! The Glossophile 12:26, September 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * Sent The Emperor Zelos 12:40, September 14, 2010 (UTC)

My new Nature Tongue
I gave the proper names of the phonemes, which I consider to be as good as the IPA symbols. I am also not intending to be as strict about the pronunciation as to limit one phonetic symbol to one phoneme but rather a class of sounds, so that the actual discription of how you should make a sound like that is way more acurate than the IPA symbol. And yet again I have used the proper linguistical names when neccessary. ImaginaryMdA 18:13, September 17, 2010 (UTC)

Sorry I did not know it was you and missunderstood, alright then The Emperor Zelos 15:08, September 18, 2010 (UTC)

Michaelunbrakeable
Are you editing my Anikuwynér page? If so, I'd appreciate if you didn't. I noticed you told me that a chart of mine is hidden and if I make it visible, it will be removed. I don't know the IPA system, nor do I want to scour the internet for the literature on it, somehow learn it, and then even somehow learn the alt-codes for the symbols. I prefer layman's terms. If that's an issue for you or the people on this site, then I can find a different website which will allow me to do so.

Uhh, you don't need to learn it fully, there's a Wikipedia page :P You can copy the symbols over, they don't have alt-codes. Here's the Wikipage: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet

Enjoy Rostov-na-don 14:01, September 18, 2010 (UTC)

Sorry but layman terms are not suffient here, and it is in our policies to use IPA, if you want IPA + layman that is fine as long as IPA is used. You are free to be here and all but we have policies and rules on how things should be so it is understandable to all who reads and yours is not suffient because "E as in eh" can mean nearly anything depending on dialect, location, origion, origional language as an Indian person speaking english might pronounce it differently than an australian, american and a british all at the same time hence it has no value.

So in order to help people pronounce things IPA is used as its neutral universal and understandable by all along with everything needed. It is to give languages here a standard that all can understand.

The Emperor Zelos 15:07, September 18, 2010 (UTC)

My opinion is that policing pages like that makes no sense and is harmful to the community. It produces nothing but bad feelings.

Zelos, if you really want to promote IPA, then instead of commenting entire phonology sections out, just go ahead and add IPA symbols to them! Then, no one would feel bad, and people would appreciate your effort. With what you do now, it is the other way around.

If you think it is too much work on your part (such a page appears approximately once every two weeks...), we can form an IPA commitee and distribute the work. Adagio burner 17:41, September 18, 2010 (UTC)

The problem is again I CANT do it because due to the variety of things I dont know what he is thinking hence the creator must be the one doing it. Hence I never remove anything just hide it so they keep their own reference and can fix it up to right level The Emperor Zelos 17:55, September 18, 2010 (UTC)

Oh come on you or anyone else here can do it by just looking up the phonetics of standard English.

If the author is not happy with it, they can always change it!

I do not see the problem here. I think people who are not falimiar with IPA are more prone to make an error. Adagio burner 18:02, September 18, 2010 (UTC)

They can do those errors, its perfectly fine and more. But even "standard" english is worthless here. because how many english people truley speak "standard" english of english natives? The Emperor Zelos 18:13, September 18, 2010 (UTC)

I think when people write something like "a as in blah", they mean the standard English, as they were taught in school, not their native dialect. And then again, if we guess their intend wrong, the author will correct it and at the same time they will learn the importance of IPA ! :) Adagio burner 20:03, September 18, 2010 (UTC)

Then why not just inform them from the begining about IPA and provide a link where they can listen and see symbols on thier own while providing a site to copy them from? The Emperor Zelos 20:14, September 18, 2010 (UTC)

This will devolve into anarchy with "eh" possibly pronounced as /æ:h/, /ex/, /æ:x/, /eh:/, /é:x:/ etcetera. The IPA eliminates the misconceptions, so a little "stimulation" won't hurt, right? Just don't go too far. Rostov-na-don 20:17, September 18, 2010 (UTC)

I think it's gone a little too far. I see people discouraged by this kind of "stimulation", offended, driven away. I can undrestand the feeling -- it feels bad when you start creating a language and immediately someone tells you what to do.

I think we can show a little good will and fix their pages creatively. Most of the time it's not hard at all. Policing just feels wrong. Adagio burner 22:00, September 18, 2010 (UTC)

I never meant to cause conflict between each other over something I said. After scouring the net for a while and doing my own research, I finally figured out which IPA symbols corresponded to my language. I agree with Adagio burner on the reaction because that's how I felt. I was mad and wanted to even leave the site and just make a blog. I've been working on my language for a good 4 years now. I feel that it's generally completed and I would like to share it with this community. I had the sign that said my page was undergoing a lot of significant construction. I was mad because Zelos completely ignored my sign and did what he/she did do. I had plans on revamping the pronunciation chart in the morning, but for now, I had the layman's terms. I wanted to have something there. Learning the few 30 IPA symbols that I needed to learn for my language was hard. Nobody wanted to help me but Rostov, and even then, it was a wild goose chase because I was directed to a wikipedia page that gave no help. I have a lot of linguists terms to learn as I realize this site is serious of technicality--and why wouldn't/shouldn't it be? Using an accepted system all must know is very intelligent/clever. That way we're all on the same page. There was a misconception, my layman's terms weren't going to be eternal, and I think it was handled wrongly on Zelos's part. Michaelunbreakable 23:43, September 18, 2010 (UTC)

We all make early mistakes, its part of it. We feel offended when corrected and we need to get on with things and learn from the mistakes.

I have been there, I have been corrected and we have all moved on.

Also, Rosotov only helping you is a lie as I provided you with a good link for it all with sounds and everything

The Emperor Zelos 04:57, September 19, 2010 (UTC)

Zelos, you are making a mistake in the way you are treating people. You have to change your attitude, and you have to be more friendly. Adagio burner 07:12, September 19, 2010 (UTC)

I have decided last night that I don't believe that I really belong in this community right now. I don't want to take something that has been a hobby for me for the past four years and then suddenly turn it into a focal point of judgment and/or criticism. This language, although sloppy in the eyes of a linguist (yet orderly in the eyes of myself), is my creation and also my hobby. I never wanted to have to conform to strict standards and be completely educated in linguistics just to get people to understand the language. There are "how-to" and "easy" guides out there for all languages and I know exactly how to write a guide for my language using the tactics of many others who use a medium language (let's say English) to teach another one (Let's say Japanese). Here, there is only one way to teach and I don't believe that I, personally, am ready to conform to such high standards. I just don't want to turn a hobby (something joyful) into a career (something stressful). Had I all the proper knowledge to convey my language in the standards, I'd be perfectly fine sharing. Sorry to cause such a ruckus and I'd like to come back some day had I finally learned the expectations.. Michaelunbreakable 14:19, September 19, 2010 (UTC)

Yikes. Drama on the Conlang Wiki. Michael, don't worry about becoming an expert- you don't have to be one to create a language (I am living proof of that :P). But there are policies that have been established to help people learn your language. Like Zelos said, you can't account for dialectic changes using things like "eh". I don't know which link he gave you, but this one may be a little easier to follow. I hope you'll come back soon, I'd be willing to help with the IPA (or other parts of the language) if you like. Razlem 14:52, September 19, 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for the help, Razlem. Yesterday, I figured out enough IPA symbols to make a chart for the letters that I use in my language, but I still feel the same way about my place here. You said that I don't have to be an expert to create a language. I'd like to let you, and possibly others, understand that my language is created, but I just don't have the tools/knowledge to convey my language to others. Michaelunbreakable 15:45, September 19, 2010 (UTC)

Then feel free to ask, We'll all gladly answer any questions adn come with suggestions. The Emperor Zelos 16:00, September 19, 2010 (UTC)

Hi there. Yes sure I'd like to talk on MSN. My add is:[mailto:mwyalchen@hotmail.com mwyalchen@hotmail.com]. Hope to talk to you soon.

Hi! Where do I click to register?

AA

Favor?
Can you take my conlang, Adwan, off the honoured list? I'm re-organized and cleaning up a lot of messy things I should have taken care of, and I don't think it's fair for me to still be honoured after my conlang has changed so dramatically. In the future, once I completely renovate Adwan to my liking, I'll run again, but for now, I do believe there's too much left to be done for it to be "honoured". Thanks in advance :) LctrGzmn 23:32, October 22, 2010 (UTC)

hi
dont wanna

thanx and bye

Suggestions for Aeou?
Hey, EmperorZelos! I figured I might need some suggestions for Aeou. Can you help, please? Thanks, Alegend2 19:28, November 3, 2010 (UTC)

Type?
Hi I've been developing a conlang for awhile now and I recently discovered this site and have put it up and continue to work on it. However, I am not quite sure for what the infobox is asking when it says "Type". If you could please help me in determining the "type" of the language, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks! ...by the way, the language is here. Vainosuomi 04:27, November 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * It refers to wether it is Isolated/Analytic, Agglutinative, Fusional or polysynthetic The Emperor Zelos 06:23, November 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks Vainosuomi 21:27, November 10, 2010 (UTC)

New Editing System?
I know wikia changed, but I was unaware that there had been significant changes to the editing system. Is there a way to edit tables without having to delete the entire thing and insert a new one? I can't seem to be able to right-click it.

Razlem 17:44, November 26, 2010 (UTC)

like before, go to source The Emperor Zelos 07:57, November 27, 2010 (UTC)

RE: Question and help
Thanks for the offer of help. I'm sure I'm going to need some. To answer your questions: 1) It's not as if capitalizing all nouns is such a strange phenomenon. For instance, all nouns in German are capitalized. I decided to go with it just to make Saryan more distant from English. 2) Why do I use the (') to link words? I don't exactly have a reason, other than my own aesthetic preference. I don't like the (-) to connect words, and I want to be able to tell that two words are in fact combined when written. That's basically it.--Effectofthemassvariety 22:13, December 4, 2010 (UTC)

I already read your reply The Emperor Zelos 20:47, December 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * Oh, sorry. Some people like to talk on one Talk Page, others like responses on their own. I didn't know. Whatevs. --Effectofthemassvariety 08:54, December 10, 2010 (UTC)

IALs
Just curious, have you ever tried to learn Esperanto? What's you opinion of it? Razlem 23:30, December 17, 2010 (UTC)

I havent nor do I intend to mostly because i find it soulless The Emperor Zelos 06:12, December 18, 2010 (UTC)

That's understandable. Unfortunately I'm having trouble injecting soul into Angy. What makes a language 'soulful'? Razlem 07:26, December 18, 2010 (UTC)

Imperfections, cultures, tweaks etc. something that makes it feel like it has been used for ages The Emperor Zelos 14:02, December 18, 2010 (UTC)

New to this. Im wondering why my stuff isn't showing up.
I have tried to work on my conlang but its not showing what I have typed in the different sections in my preveiw. Does it need to be approved or something? just curious. I'd love a tour around this giant magical chocolate factory of a conloang site.

thanks,

Davidj.hemminger 15:40, December 19, 2010 (UTC)

XD No, there is no approval needed though there are a few rules to follow, keep english and use IPA and youre fine. The Emperor Zelos 17:44, December 19, 2010 (UTC)

thats regarded as a comment and hence not shown, thats why youre stuff is hidden

Deletion?
Why did you delete my article? I know there wasn't much on it, but it was in progress. I was going to add more over time.

Paul.r.mcdowell 02:48, December 22, 2010 (UTC)

which one?

Am'sansuun. It's been deleted three times now

Paul.r.mcdowell 22:04, December 22, 2010 (UTC)

cant seem to find it but I would suspect if thats the case tis because youve deleted all the templates and all that youre supposed to use hence it has been considered bottish or something 78.72.234.208 07:53, December 23, 2010 (UTC)

Evolution of plants
I'm not home, so I'll ask you a question here. Even tho it's conlang-unrelated, I still find you the best person to ask. Say, due to the seemingly blue light of the sun, would plants evolve a blue pigment to protect themselves?

Rostov-na-don ist deine herr Oberst ! 11:47, December 30, 2010 (UTC)

If you had a blue sun (or a blue atmospheric filter), the dominant plant color would be yellow or orange.

Razlem 15:06, December 30, 2010 (UTC)

Oh Rostov-na-don ist deine herr Oberst ! 18:09, December 30, 2010 (UTC)

Change name?
Hello, I am the creator of the conlang of Cszyhrvasque. I was wondering if it is possible to change the name to Harvengian?or do I have to completely create a new page and copy everything over??.

From:Czjeknow yes you just move it The Emperor Zelos 07:41, December 31, 2010 (UTC)

Can you help me?
I don't know much about the language vocabulary, so if possible could you help me fill in they data boxes on Tripian? Thanks. atomic 77 32 15:34, January 2, 2011 (UTC)

start with going to wikipedia and check out IPA The Emperor Zelos 15:41, January 2, 2011 (UTC)

I got all the letters sounds. Is this what you wanted? Now what? atomic 77 32 22:28, January 3, 2011 (UTC)

Better, looks not taht good but thats mostly just look rather than function, you need to describe things of your language such as supine, subclauses, participle, gerund and such

Not sure what those are... Nor what you want me to do with it... atomic 77 32 00:02, January 6, 2011 (UTC)

check wikipedia =) The Emperor Zelos 07:07, January 6, 2011 (UTC)

Fail
MSNFail, to be exact Rostov-na-don ist deine herr Oberst ! 16:34, January 23, 2011 (UTC)

what happened? The Emperor Zelos 19:16, January 23, 2011 (UTC)

I messed up my computer's internal clock to prevent it from reseting. It worked, but I can't use MSN :P Rostov-na-don ist deine herr Oberst ! 12:45, January 25, 2011 (UTC)

FIx it again and i'll wait or use skype The Emperor Zelos 16:37, January 25, 2011 (UTC)

Templates and forms
I've noticed that most pages have a template with conjugation, cases, etc.. I was wondering how to do that. Thank you. Wolny kraj 23:02, January 23, 2011 (UTC)

do you mean conjugation tables ands uch or do you mean wether they have it or not? The Emperor Zelos 06:08, January 24, 2011 (UTC)

Progress template
How does it work? For example, in the "NounCases" box, am i supposed to write how many noun cases it has or do i have to do something else? Lufttygger306 16:23, February 11, 2011 (UTC)

I thought it said it already but you write a number between 0 and 100 to mark how many percent you think all cases are done with their declensions, how it works etc The Emperor Zelos 07:50, February 12, 2011 (UTC)

About contionary
How would I be able to use contionary and have the template that shows all the words from contionary work, how exactly are they linked?OlykoekSlayer 20:28, February 13, 2011 (UTC)

how do you mean exacly? The Emperor Zelos 07:36, February 14, 2011 (UTC)

Well in the table on the Umbrean page for example, you can see the tables such as "Life form groups" which show a link to "Contionary_Wiki" instead of saying the Umbrean word, yet in your conjunction table it seems you've linked contionary's words with the table here, I was just wondering how you did this because there is a nifty template on my Efhonisk page... OlykoekSlayer 00:14, February 15, 2011 (UTC)

check out the coding and you get your answer then The Emperor Zelos 06:16, February 15, 2011 (UTC)

Kitchen sink
God of the conlang wikia and writer of the article about kitchen sink languages, would you consider Simplengva to be a kitchen sink language? Xwarq 00:00, March 3, 2011 (UTC)

Guy doing stuff
I've noticed this guy doing strange stuff, aka giving you too much delete work. Who's he? Rostov-na-don ist deine herr Oberst ! 17:56, March 23, 2011 (UTC)

Morpho Alignment
I would like to ask you for your opinion on my morphosyntactic alignment (H'snme). , Reichkommisar - (Ostland) - 22:30, April 16, 2011 (UTC)


 * 1) you already admit it is Tripartite
 * 2) Agglutinative already includes inflectional
 * 3) Noun/Verbs being the same? How is that even possible? Even in english where nouns/verbs arent marked they are not the same word class and I dont even think ANY language would ever treat them the same because the differens ebtween an event/action and just a mere object/concept is so immense that they simply cant be bridged

The Emperor Zelos 07:03, April 17, 2011 (UTC)


 * 1) Isn't that a bit hasty? By the amount of cases, it is tripartite, but not by the marking. It's like comparing Transitive with Ergative because they have the same amount of cases.
 * 2) By both of those, I meant both stacking and fusional/inflectional synthetic.
 * 3) Eh... You shouldn't bring everything into the norm. For an even more radical example, try Kēlen.

- Reichkommisar - (Ostland) - 09:50, April 17, 2011 (UTC)


 * 1) How do you mean?


 * 1) If its got fusional elements then it is a fusional not agglutinative


 * 1) saying "I just wanna be different" Doesnt answer the objection of it being fundametnally flawed in reason structure and how people speak.

The Emperor Zelos 16:50, April 17, 2011 (UTC)


 * 1) I didn't admit it's Tripartite, I said that it has 3 core cases. You said that it's tripartite, which would be like calling Transitive Ergative.


 * 1) Fusional + Agglutinative


 * 1) I'm allowed to do something different. Go and complain to Pirahã or Xhoo (or Ithkuil or Kēlen for that matter. Ithkuil lacks the same distinction, Kēlen doesn't even have verbs, and I don't see you trying to ban them from view)

- Reichkommisar - (Ostland) - 17:50, April 17, 2011 (UTC) The Emperor Zelos 16:17, April 18, 2011 (UTC) - Reichkommisar - (Ostland) - 17:50, April 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) If its fusional you can already HAVE agglutinative in it so FUsional means it can contain aglgutinative already, its like saying "nonirresistable" to mean "irresistable", you are already ahving what you need on its unneccisery saying it twice.
 * 2) You are allowed to go different, Im not going to try to force you into something and I wont ban you or anything, geezes christ you really think I would do that?
 * 1) >_> nonirresistable = resistable, and by agglutinating most people instantly think about slapping morphemes together. I wanted to point out that I have both "layered" and compact.
 * 2) >_> you are overreacting.

I know, but people do use double engatives to mean positive. and do you know the differens between Fusional Languages and Agglutinative languages? The Emperor Zelos 18:32, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

Yes, and yes. (Slavic languages use multi negatives to make negation) - Reichkommisar - (Ostland) - 20:22, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

Then tlel me what each mean

The Emperor Zelos 21:57, April 18, 2011 (UTC)


 * P Fusional is with a tendency to add morphemes in a way difficult to dismember. Agglutinating languages are ones with a high tendency to add affixes and each having only one meaning (3rd person, then plural, etc).

- Reichkommisar - (Ostland) - 22:18, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

Exacly, then Fusional incorperate agglutinative, if you got ufsional you can automaticly do agglutinative

The Emperor Zelos 05:04, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

Your logic makes some sense... - Reichkommisar - (Ostland) - 11:21, April 19, 2011 (UTC) Yes, I've noticed that now, too. The following excerpt is from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salish_language#Family_features :
 * Hiya peeps, sorry to burst in uninvited on your conversation, but I noticed the "Noun/Verbs being the same? How is that even possible?" comment and well, I felt like I had to reply.
 * "As with many other languages of northern North America, Salish is polysynthetic; like other languages of the Mosan language area, there is no clear distinction between noun and verb"
 * :P ~ Billy J.B(talk) 11:47, April 18, 2011 (UTC)

Family features - Reichkommisar - (Ostland) - 13:30, April 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * post-velar harmony (more areal)
 * presence of syllables without vowels
 * grammatical reduplication
 * nonconcatenation (infixes, metathesis, glottalization)
 * tenselessness
 * nounlessness (controversial)

IPA
I'm planning to work on a very basic language called Vakhai, but I've already found my first bump in the road: IPA. Are there any helpful websites out there describing (all) the symbols and examples of these? Thanks. A RMACHEDES 00:19, April 17, 2011 (UTC)

http://www.yorku.ca/earmstro/ipa/

Examples of all The Emperor Zelos 05:27, April 17, 2011 (UTC)

CanIPA
I've noticed a far more in-depth phonetic alphabet on the internet. It's called CanIPA and here are the pdfs: http://venus.unive.it/canipa/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=en:pdf

What do you think of it? - Reichkommisar - (Ostland) - 11:31, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

Rostov
The guy's annoying as hell D: I don't know how you can stand him, but that's not what I came here to say. I'm going to be in charge of my account from now on (unless he hacks it)

And I know you two are in cahoots, so please, anything you have to say to him, use his talk page. Wattman 17:11, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

Tarul
Hey, I just wanted to inform you that I saw your comment on my conscript. Please read the response I posted. Plusquamperfekt 20:37, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

Hello - Table Help
Hello, I take it you're the head honcho around here. Anywho, I was having trouble adding a table to my WIP language page. Specifically, I get the table all nice and set up, then click publish, and it vanishes. I've tried like 20 times, even trying to do preview first, and no dice. I had a little bit of trouble adding the vowels table, too, but eventually it did get on there somehow. That only took four or five tries I believe.

I know this might not be anything you can fix, just wanted to know if it was a known issue. OAM47 19:47, April 20, 2011 (UTC)