Forum:Translation Challenge/1

Since people were so interested we will do this now, here is how it goes. The Emperor Zelos 13:17, May 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * There will be 4 sentences, brackets will be used to show where subclauses are to assist
 * Two easy with no subclauses
 * One medium with a single subclause
 * One complex with multiple subclauses, no more than 4.
 * Everyone one is allowed to enter (these competitions only last a week at a time)
 * Grades are given using template, it will colour the grade and you replace X with any letter between A and F, A being good, and F being aweful, reasons for it will is put after and prefered to know why
 * Grades shall be done in accordance to these criterias, place a grade on each one when you "vote"
 * Originallity, how original is the way of expressing? for example of a word is literly meaning "Made unique" but used where we would say "featured" it is given a higher rating as it isnt direct, simple sentences may be excused from this
 * Information Retention, how well is the meaning retained? While identical meaning is impossible it shouldnt strive off too much
 * Elegancy, how elegantly is it put? Too much going around that is near unneccisery is worse than other
 * The contestants or challangers shall give the exact wording in their conlang, then provide description of each element, dative markers etc, and then a direct translation back into english
 * Winner each week pick 2 or 3 sentences to translate again that is culturally and timely neutral, no terms that is exclusive to a specific culture or time. Instead of "car" one takes "cart", electronical things should be avoided to give all languages a sporty shot.

Discussion
Umbrean_Lessons/04_Another_object for style of part analyze, perhaps using this style? The Emperor Zelos 15:52, May 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * It would take up a lot of space, especially for longer sentences. Razlem 16:33, May 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * Fiar point, hmmmm suggestions? The Emperor Zelos 16:49, May 7, 2010 (UTC)

Savazano
 * As far as I can see, the word order in Savazano repeats the one in English almost 100% of the time. I think the probability of this being the case when you are translating between two natlangs is close to zero.
 * Ah, but it's not a natlang ;) It's doing exactly what it was designed to do, to convey the point as easily and precisely as possible. I bolded the words in the description; you'll see that the root system is what gives it its flexibility. Razlem 21:04, May 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Precise and easily is a taste thing, in my eyes it isnt any of the two The Emperor Zelos 11:50, May 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * But English doesn't do it in the most precise way possible. It is just one method of giving the exact same (i.e. precise) meaning. It only SEEMS precise to you because it is your native language.PsykieKILLA 11:26, May 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * I have a problem with conlangs that mimic the way of expression in your native language. Adagio burner 21:14, May 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * It is rather soulless when it does occure, nothing new. The Emperor Zelos 11:50, May 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * Simple words yield simple results, which is why I originally wanted to translate a technical sentence. How else can I test the translation capabilities? Razlem 13:08, May 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * Thats why there is medium and hard sentences, technical sentences are too specific to certain cultures. a language of mediaval people cant do technical things, but you can construct a complicated sentence then anyway by using everyday concepts that is more or less common, The Emperor Zelos 17:55, May 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * In particular, it is weird how the subordinate clause in the last sentence ends with the word "with", just like in English. I don't know if any other language does it the same way as English does, nut most natlangs would structure it differently. It definitely feels more like a word-to-word translation than a sentence in a different language. Adagio burner 20:11, May 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm kind of confused, where do you see "with" at the end of a clause besides the original sentence? Razlem 21:04, May 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * "A(sing)- white(adj)(sing)- cart(n)(sing),- that(conj)- I(adj)(sing)- [fem(parent-sibling relation)]- go(v)(past)(perfective)- with(prep)" is the part that translates "A white cart that my aunt had gone with", right? This "go with" is very much English-specific. Natives of other languages could say "with-go", or "with which my aunt had gone", etc. Adagio burner 21:14, May 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah! Thank you! That's actually what I was looking for when creating that clause (with which). I knew there was a better way, but I couldn't think of it at the time. Pitiful, I can't even decipher my native language T_T Razlem 04:23, May 8, 2010 (UTC)

Mis Hio
 * I like how you add the idioms you use The Emperor Zelos 20:28, May 7, 2010 (UTC)

Adwan
 * "that-nom none-nom" in the last sentence: you probably meant accusative? "that" (the store) is the object of "like". Adagio burner 01:56, May 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, wow, thank you. Well. Only "that" should be in the accusative. "...that none like." "None" is in the nominative, for "none" is a noun and is the subject for the verb "like". Thanks for telling me about the relative pronoun, though! LctrGzmn 03:44, May 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Right. BTW it's a little weird that, even though Adwan has genders, "that" does not change with the gender of the noun it refers to. Just a thought. :)
 * Well no, why would it change? "That" is refferring to the store, which, like most nouns, are neuter by default and don't take up any gender. If it was to be referring to something with a gender, such as "my aunt", it would then become "sażoč", but since it's referring to the "store", or "ðrochym", which is genderless (a gendered "store", which can't possibly happen due to semantical rules, would be "ðrochymoč" or "ðrochymeš".) then it stays genderless, as does "saż". Does that make sense?

Yes of course. It is "that (neutral)" then. Makes perfect sense. Adagio burner 15:12, May 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Correct! Only since all nouns are neuter by default, they are not marked for being neuter. Rather, nouns in the feminine are marked for being feminine, and nouns in the masculine are marked for the masculine, while neuter nouns, which have no special indications, as the neuter gender is assumed, are not marked in glosses or in its morphology.

Mulanuqa
 * I am quite lost in the very beginning of the last sentence. "move(passive) it(accusative) too-old(causative) wagon(accusative) white". There are two accusatives -- they are objects to which verbs? too-old -- is it an adjective? To which noun? Does it agree with the noun? Adagio burner 01:56, May 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Understandable. "It" is in the accusative, because it refers to the wagon, also in the accusative. There is only one verb in this sentence, which is "moved". There's no information about who is actually moving the cart, so there is no subject here. Since the cart doesn't do this on its own, it has to be in the accusative, not nominative. "dúkvykha" means "too-old-ness", so it's actually a noun. It points to the "it" preceding it. This was a tough sentence to translate, and although this would certainly be understood, there could be more optimal translations. Morymuga 08:52, May 9, 2010 (UTC)

Context
People seem to go on about context so for next one i ask this, think we should have strict context or let meaning be more flowing where we let each one determine the meaning as they see fit? The Emperor Zelos 21:06, May 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * For the one with the bird and the display window, can I know what exactly about flying by is so important. No one would ever say that a bird came flying towards a reasonably nearby area and after that immediately without stopping continued, going away from that nearby location. That is more or less how you have to translate it, including all the pointless details, which a Quai'op speaker would almost always omit. And also it would be nice to have evidentialities, so even though most languages wouldn't include evidentialities, they are almost always used in Quai'op. Or I could just use the indicative, but that wouldn't make much sense. —Detectivekenny; (Info) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 17:01, May 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately i fail to understand what info you want The Emperor Zelos 17:33, May 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * From what I understand- Instead of saying, "The bird is small", say something like, "The bird being in an undefined space (not) in the vicinity has the quality of weighing less than .5kg"
 * Am I correct kenny? Razlem 17:24, May 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * No. It would translate as "not(indicative) large bird." But that's not the point I was trying to convey in that example. Take the following instances of "the bird flew by" as they would be in Quai'op
 * 1) Li: I really dislike how the animals often disturb the people at my restaurant.
 * Zhang: I know. A bird just flew by.
 * In Quai'op, Zhang's reply would be "a bird came" because it is arbitrary that the bird flew away.
 * 2) Li: Where did my pet bird go? I thought I saw it coming towards here.
 * Zhang: A bird just flew by.
 * In this case, we are emphasizing that it went away, so you would say "the bird flew away"
 * 3) Li: Three hours and not a single bird. Maybe birdwatching in the Kalahari wasn't such a good idea.
 * Zhang: A bird just flew by. You missed it.
 * In this case, "a bird flew by" would be "a bird was seen"
 * So you can see that "a bird flew by" could translate many different ways into Quai'op, but the entire meaning would virtually never be needed in context. Sorta get what I mean? —Detectivekenny; (Info) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 19:48, May 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes i get what you mean, I say we go by we let the person in question decied which they think fits best The Emperor Zelos 19:54, May 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah. There are things that you just don't say in certain languages, even though they would be grammatically correct. Can't think of any examples. —Detectivekenny; (Info) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 01:23, May 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Some languages differ dramatically in the way things are being expressed, both grammatically and in the way vocabulary is built. Yet IT is always possible to translate from one language to another, wit more or less acuracy, and all kinds of things are eing translated: prose, poetry, street signs. So: I guess one has to imagine he/she is a professional translator, and go ahead with the job. Of course more context would make the translation more accurate. But what we have has to make do. this time Maybe next time it makes more sense to tranlsate a paragraph of meaningful text, instead of disjoint sentences? Adagio burner 02:11, May 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Oooh, that'd definitely make things more challenging, yet easier to translate. I'm all up for that ^ LctrGzmn 02:14, May 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * I've already done that with Savazano and Logiano (example texts). It is certainly more challenging, but I find that it is a better test of grammar and vocabulary as far as usefulness. Razlem 02:37, May 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Right, I've done a bit of translating myself as well. Yet, I find this forum to be a much easier way to study other people's languages. It takes too much time to go through the examples; here, with the grammar analysis and word-to-word translation, it is much easier to do. And it's more fun as well :) Adagio burner 03:22, May 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's also alot easier when you have handpicked examples, rather than a gigantuan amount of sentences to randomly pick from. It gives one an incentive, and it also helps when other people put in their input, like this.

Grades
Places grades here The Emperor Zelos 20:24, May 7, 2010 (UTC)

Seriously time to vote guys! The Emperor Zelos 20:41, May 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * Savazano
 * I feel the translations are a tad too direct, feels like there is barely any differens at all The Emperor Zelos 20:56, May 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * So I'm assuming that's under the "originality" category. Razlem 21:09, May 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Correct, of course meaning and such is nearly intact but thats because it is basicly a word by word translation or so i feel The Emperor Zelos 21:30, May 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Mis Hio
 * rather decent but i feel when looking at things information loss is rather great "animal of air" can be a bat, bird, insect or anything between The Emperor Zelos 21:51, May 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * "animal of air" is a Mis Hio idiom that means "bird". That's the basic rule of the language, the idioms are part of the vocabulary, and it's spelled out very clearly in the language description. Just like the phrases "tongue in cheek", "couch potato", "make ends meet", "spill the beans" etc, etc have very definite meanings in English, "hon kó" means a "bird" in Mis Hio and it is entered in the Dicutionary as such. You will find similar phenomena in many other langauges, e.g. Chinese. Mis Hio simply takes this to the extreme, which was an interesting thing to do. :) Adagio burner 22:25, May 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * You're right about that. In Chinese, "animal" is "move thing." And it gets worse. Zoo is "move thing garden." —Detectivekenny; (Info) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 04:26, May 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * how is "bat" said?
 * hon kó mita (animal of dark air), or hon kó mita hon lano quó (animal of dark air, animal with fur) if you want to be really precise. When you talk in Mis Hio, the first time you mention a bat in the conversation you would say the long version and then you'll reduce it to the shorter one. It is common to simply say hon when no other animals are being discussed, in the same way we'd say "it" in English when you know what "it" means. (Of course the limited number of pronouns in English limits their use: "it" can also mean any other object mentioned in the conversation. In Mis Hio this abbreviated form of reference can be used more extensively.)
 * (Also note that "dark bird" is hon kó hon mita) Adagio burner 23:09, May 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * Quai'op
 * Adwan
 * Mulanuqa
 * Umbrean

There needs to be a cutoff because it's growing too big which will make it impossible to judge. No more entries for this contest. —Detectivekenny; (Info) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 19:48, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

Sentences

 * 1) The stone fell.
 * 2) A bird flew by my stores display window.
 * 3) The old man [that enjoys reading] walked up to me.
 * 4) A white cart [which my aunt had gone to the store with] is being transported to a store [that no one really likes] [because it is just too old]
 * Does [because it is just too old] describe the cart or the store? Razlem 15:03, May 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * P either, contextual
 * Hmm, I translated it as the store being too old, but I guess the cart being too old makes much more sense. Mis Hio does not allow any ambiguity here, so I really need to pick one or the other. Adagio burner 20:01, May 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * I assume you're not going to tell me the evidentialities, whether the bird is a paserine or not, or any other specifications? —Detectivekenny; (Info) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 01:36, May 11, 2010 (UTC)