Forum:Group Project/Organization

Start-General-Vocabulary-Organization-Innovations

I propose we create a proper project page, so that we can keep track of the progress. This page is getting overloaded and we have just started the language. I will create a regular page for it, so we can get started. Main discussion continues here, however. Panglossa | Talk 01:35, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

I would like to have done that sooner, but I wasn't sure what to name it o_0 Razlem 01:45, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

Done, I named it the same as the Forum page, only without the "Forum:" prefix:


 * Group Project

Later on we can change it, maybe when we decide a name for the language. I guess we should decide that only after the phonology is established. Panglossa | Talk 01:51, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

Dictionary
Since this language will revolve around changing the last medial vowel, we should create a dictionary of roots in the example format: "gel-l", where "-" is the identifying vowel. Razlem 17:50, June 13, 2010 (UTC)

Better not. Say we have our word gelol/gelyl meaning "soup," then what does gelal mean? You can't tell it means "to drink soup." —Detectivekenny; (Info) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 21:52, June 13, 2010 (UTC)

I can tell that gelyl means "soup", gelal means "to soup" (which one would understand to be 'to make something into soup' or 'soupify'), and gelil means "soupy". As in Esperanto, teatro means theatre, teatra means theatrical, teatre means theatrically, teatras means "to theatre" (which one would understand as 'to make like a theatre' or 'theaterize'). Yet the only form in the Esperanto dictionary is "teatr". It would be inefficient to include every possible form in the dictionary. Razlem 02:41, June 14, 2010 (UTC)

You would have an Esperanto dictionary. Lol why not just include the verb form. The verb form is always weird in relation to the noun. Like kanti and kanto. Kanti, means "to sing" and what do you sing? You sing a song. Paroli and parolo? What do you say? You say a parolo. But what do you vidi? You don't vidi a vido. Hence the esperanta system doesn't work, 'specially for non-Europeans. We should clarify that gelyl should come from the root "gelal" meaning "to drink soup." To soupify could be gelylat or some other suffix. —Detectivekenny; (Info) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 15:57, June 14, 2010 (UTC)

Assuming "vidi" means "to see", you can in fact see a sight. It is rare that one can use all forms of the root. Esperanto has the root "leg" meaning "read". "Legi" means to read, but "lego, lega, and lege" are not used. Since you can't "soup" something in any language, it would be illogical to use the verb form "gelal". Instead use the example root "baan-ng"-drink- "baanang gelyl". Razlem 17:31, June 14, 2010 (UTC)

Here's your Anglocentricity again. Who says you can't soup something in any language? Sure, it's not any language I know, but still… Why not base "gelyl" off a verb? Instead of basing everything off the noun "gelyl," which yields nothing for "gelal," why not have a verb "gelal," "to drink soup" that yields gelyl: soup, gelil: drinking soup, gelylil: relating to soup, gelel: while drinking soup, etc. And from baan-ng we could have baanong meaning "a drink, something to drink." We could do that for every food. "Maa" could mean "to eat rice" and thus we have "moo": rice, etc. Because naturally, you can take a noun coming from a verb to mean "something you can VERB" but a noun to a verb is so much more irregular, it's best to start from a noun. An English speaker might interpret Esperanta "suki" to mean "to make into juice" but another might interpret it as "to drink juice." With my system, going off verbs, there is a lot more regularity. —Detectivekenny; (Info) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 19:04, June 14, 2010 (UTC)

It's hardly Anglocentric. I'm suggesting that each word be based on an empty root "gel-l", which approximately translates to "having to do with some soup-like substance", but has no meaning until a vowel is added. The root itself does not mean the noun "soup." Your suffix for gelyl "gelylil" conflicts with the medial vowel identification. If "maa" is "eat rice", then how would one say "grow rice" or "cook rice" or "use rice"? Would there be different words, and more derivatives, for each? Razlem 20:14, June 14, 2010 (UTC)

No. That's not what I'm saying. If we use your approach, then it would be crazy for stuff that actually is a verb. You are making too thick a line betwen nouns and verbs. Say we have the verb "kigpaan" meaning "to swim." Then what would you write in the dictionary? Like I said, we should write everything in terms of verbs. Say "maa" means "eat rice." That automatically implies that "moo" means rice. To grow rice might be "Simja moo" with "simja" meaning "to grow" and then cook rice would be "ala moo." If we base our language on verbs, we can practically double our vocabulary. I mean sure if we want to incorporate the verb "konlaang" meaning "to conlang" we already have the noun "konlyyng" meaning "a conlang." But if we insert the dictionary word "konl--ng" meaning "relating to conlangs" then where do we get the nouns?

Here, lemme retierate my system. Take any verb, say nguupar meaning "to search for." The root is nguup-r. Now then "nguupyr" must then be "something artificial that you search for." Then "nguupor" is "something natural you search for." Nguupir is "searching for something" as an adjective. To get "a search for something" you make the word nguuparo. There is no ambiguity.

But with your system we have this. Nguup-r meaning "something to do with a search." Nguupor means "a search for something." Nguupar, nguupir, nguuper, are all like wha? Chinese people will die right here I tell you. There's absolutely no way to tell that "nguupar" means "to search." A Chinese person who didn't speak English might say "you mean like making something into a search?"

Screw the Esperanto system. We're trying to be more derivational here. And our system is much different anyway. —Detectivekenny; (Info) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 20:50, June 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * Your system is very strange. There's no way to tell that "maa" means "eat rice", and does that mean that the verb "to eat" does not exist? Would you "maa moo" or just "maa"? Also, you misinterpreted my system, which is "having", not "something" which indicates a noun.

If Nguup-r means "having to do with a search", then logically,

Noun + having to do with a search = a search

Verb + having to do with a search = to make something like a search (yes, this is in fact what it means) or simply, to search

Adjective + having to do with a search = having to do with a search or like a search

Adverb + having to do with a search = (to do something) like a search

Razlem 23:50, June 14, 2010 (UTC)

It's not strange. The reason we know "maa" means "to eat rice" is because that's the definition! Hence "moo" follows as so:

to eat rice + noun = something you eat (rice) = rice

to eat rice + verb = to eat rice

to eat rice + adjective = to eat rice + verb + adjective = eating rice

to eat rice + adverb = eating rice

to eat rice + noun + adjective = relating to rice

to eat rice + (act of) + adjective = relating to the consumption of rice

Notice how we get a lot more out of one root and notice how it's a lot more specific and unambiguous.

to search + noun = something you search for

to search + verb = to search

to search + adjective = to search + verb + adjective = searching

to search + adverb = searchingly

to search + (act of) = a search

I want you to read this essay, which shows the reason I choose it to be this way. Note how it mentions why roots should be based on verbs rather than nouns. http://www.eskimo.com/~ram/vocabulary_design.html —Detectivekenny; (Info) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 01:31, June 15, 2010 (UTC)

I don't believe that is correct. Your adverb form is actually an adverbial clause, which itself is closer to a prepositional phrase than an actual adverb. "He ran (while) eating rice". "Eating rice" does not describe in what manner he "ran" the way "quickly" would. Also, "to eat rice + noun" to me means "the action of eating rice", and not "rice" itself.

If maa means to eat rice, then simjumaa means to grow rice, alumaa means to cook rice, and each would have a complete set of derivatives (and would "kompjutar" mean to eat computers?) This is a great idea if you want an elaborate natlang, but for an auxlang, a smaller vocabulary is better. It would be much more efficient just to have a separate verb for eat "jad" and not use the verb form of "moo".

And what about simple adjectives such as "green" or nouns such as "house". You can build a house, but you can also build a building or a shed or a machine. To have separate verbs for each of those is very inefficient for an auxlang.

So instead of:

maa

derivative

derivative

derivative

...

simjumaa

derivative

...

alumaa

...

Just have:

jad moo

simja moo

ala moo

Razlem 03:11, June 15, 2010 (UTC)

Look. First of all, my use of adverbs is correct, as it parallels the usage in Chinese. Why not increase flexbility by following their method rather than limiting ourselves with Eurocentricity.

Computer would come from the verb "komputaar" meaning "to use a computer," thus making komputyyr a computer. (on a side note, look how convenient the adverb komputeer becomes. I typed that up komputeer. I komputeer sent you an e-mail.)

House would come from the verb "epaal" meaning "to live" thus making epyyl somewhere you live.

Green comes from the verb "fajhaat" meaning "to be green," and since it is intransitive, "fajhoot" would be "something green." To get the word for "green" you would have to say "falhiit noos," green colour. —Detectivekenny; (Info) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 13:37, June 15, 2010 (UTC)

Derivation (Continued)
What your system gains in flexibility, it loses in regularity, which is the core of any auxlang.

All of this can be said just as easily with the other system.

fajh--t (means nothing, but the derivations will pertain to green)

fajhaat (the meaning is based on context, can either be "to make green" or "to be green")

fajhyyt (something artificial that is green)

fajhoot (something natural that is green)

fajheet ('to do something' in a green manner)

fajhiit (like green, or simply, green)

In addition, there are the example roots "l-" "be", and "t-" "make", so you have the option of saying "ta fajhiit" or "la fajhiit" to decrease ambiguity.

In total I have 3 roots, fajh--t, l-, t-, and about 15 derivations. Compare that to your system, which would require a separate word for "make green" and "be green", as well as the words for "be" and "make"- 4 roots total, about 20 derivations, and possibly 8 semantic repeats (art noun, nat noun, adv, and adj).

We can't have a Sinocentric system, and this is not Eurocentric. The Chinese derivation system is highly idiosyncratic, plus you wind up with many forms of the same word. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it does not fit with an auxlang.

Razlem 15:08, June 15, 2010 (UTC)

How can I get this across to you. It's not idiosyncratic, and it's not Sinocentric. What you're giving me is an arbitrary system. Completely arbitrary, do you realize that? This is because you are trying to distinguish parts of speech. You are acting like fajhiit, green, is the main form of the word, and as well you are not including that in the dictionary. In my system, we could have the verb jan, meanin "to cause." Thus you could say jan fajhaat (in infinitive form lol which we haven't decided), and furthermore you could say jan komputaar or jan maa.

Just look past the end of your nose, your country, your culture, your language, etc. Some Europeans may find your derivational system logical but in reality there's nothing logical about it. You expect there to magically arise a verb. "To be green" is TOTALLY ARBITRARY believe it or not, and it would confuse easterners beyond comprehension. Same with "TO SEARCH" "TO MAKE INTO RICE," ETC. I have no idea about your agruments. They're absolute nonsense. Just reread my system already and stop being so Anglocentric/arbitrary. —Detectivekenny; (Info) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 15:33, June 15, 2010 (UTC)

You're correct, it is arbitrary. But your system is no less. Say you have the word "tal" meaning "to grow (plant) a seed" with "tol" meaning seed. Many seeds can also be eaten, but you can't use "tal" for "eat seeds", you'd have to use "jad tol". But for some reason, you can't "jad moo", you just "maa". You can't use "maa" for "grow rice", you'd have to use "simja moo". Now you have two words "simja, tal" which both mean "to grow" something. Now say you have "kyja" to cook dinner, with "kyjy" meaning dinner. To eat dinner, you can't kyja. If you create another verb for "to eat dinner"- "kuula", you'd wind up with two forms of the exact same word "dinner" (kuuly, kyjy). Not to mention people in India would go nuts if "tor" (cow/beef) came from "tar" (to eat cow/beef) lol.

The main meaning would be in the dictionary in this format:

al-: cook

fajh--t: green

gel-l: soup

m--: rice

j-d: eat

kyj-: dinner

l-: be

t-: make

t-r: cow

None of these roots mean anything by their empty selves, and it's going to be impossible to use every single medial vowel (what does "tur" or "alu" mean, if "u" is miscellaneous?)

It seems like it's impossible to make this easy for Easterners (who, from what I'm gathering, don't use parts of speech, at least not in the same manner as Europeans?). In that case, neither of our systems would work. And I know for a fact that the Arabic and Hindi speaking population (totalling about 650 million) would have trouble with these systems as well. To be regular would be inefficient, to be efficient would be irregular. Hooray for snags... Perhaps we should conduct a poll to see which system people would have the least trouble with, here on Conlangs. It's not going to decide anything, and it will most likely be biased towards an Esperanta system, but just for shits and giggles :P

By the way, where the hell is Panglossa? Is he not interested in the project anymore? I miss his input :(

Razlem 20:03, June 15, 2010 (UTC)