Talk:Classical Va'aini

Ooh, a polysynthetic language. Just curious, are you trying to make a polysynthetic language or did you just put that term in the box, because if you're designing a polysynthetic language, I can offer plenty of help. (I askthis because the grammar so far looks similar to an indo-european language, e.g., not polysynthetic.)

Greatbuddha (talk) 01:31, December 2, 2013 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't notice this for so long!

At first when I was making this language I admit I knew very little of linguistics. Recently I purchased "The Language Construction Kit," and it's been making me rethink most of my language work. I've begun anew with my new Quùvarani language (page: Middle Va'aini if you want to check it out) and I think I have a better idea of how to make it actually polysynthetic this time, but I'd greatly appreciate help.

Tee Seven (talk) 17:24, January 12, 2014 (UTC)

Polysynthetic languages
Going on the internet or on conlanging forums, a comprehendable explanation of polysynthetic languages is difficult to find, so here is my understanding.

In my experience, polysynthetic languages can roughly be divided into two types: word mashers, and templatics.

Word mashers are the easier of the two to understand. Examples include Eskimo languages and Algonquian languages. Word mashers usually allow an indefinite amount of prefixes/suffixes on a word to modify it's meaning. They do not come in a strict order, that is up to the speaker (kind of like adjectives in English, people will usually say "big red dog" rather than "red big dog" even though  both are technically correct.) Example:

nere: Base of the word "eat" in yup'ik. ner'ua(nere-unga): I eat neryugtua(nere-yug-unga): I want to eat neryullruunga(nere-yug-llru-unga): I wanted to eat neryullrunritua (nere-yug-llru-nrite-unga): I didn't want to eat. Notice how you can just keep on adding suffixes indefinitely. Most word masher languages have distinct nouns and verbs, eskimo and algonquian nouns both decline for case and number. Also, a characteristic of many polysynthetic languages is agreeing with both subject and object.

neryullrunritenka(nere-yug-llru-nrite-nka): I didn't want to eat those two (ending -nka means 1st person singular subject, third person dual object). Notice also how when suffixes are added weird changes happen, yugllru becomes yullru, nereunga becomes ner'ua, etc. It is rare in a polysynthetic language for prefixes/suffixes to combine in a simple manner. Polysynthetic languages will also use methods other than affixes to indicate information, for example, ojibwe uses ablaut to distinguish an independant clause verb from a dependant one.

ni-waabam-aa: I see you

wayaabam-ag: that/because I see you

Templatic polysynthetic languages are more common, and more difficult. A superb example is navajo, one of the most difficult languages in existance. It is part of the athapaskan familiy, notorious for extroardinarily complex verb systems. Templatic languages frequently have few nouns, with verb participles replacing nouns. Templatic languages do NOT have an unlimited amount of suffixes like word mashers, but rather a very rigid affix system.

A rough Navajo verb template

DisjunctConjunctstem

Lexical prefixes- others-Object pronouns-inner prefixes-moodmarker-subject prefix-classifier-stem

na                                                                                    s                                   sh         ne'

niséne': I played

naashné: I play

nideeshneehl: I will play

Notice how the prefixes combine in extremely complex ways, like in Eskimo. Remember, the different parts of the polysynthetic verb usually contract together in complex and irregular ways. For example:

Navajo subject prefixes       (plus imperfect marker s)

Single              Duoplural Single      Duoplural

1 sh                  iid            sé/sis        siid

2 ni                  ooh          síní            soo/sooh

3 0                                   s/z

Also, each slot in a polysynthetic verb template does not necessarily have to be associated with one kind of prefix. For example, the "subject" slot of the navajo verb contains prefixes that don't have to do with subjects, and not all subject prefixes are in the "subject" slot. For example, a fourth person prefix in Navajo is put into the object slot.

Lexical-object-subject-stem

na-ji-z-ne'

nijizne': he/she(4th person) played. The ji prefix indicates a fourth person subject, yet is in the object slot.

Also, slots in the template will occasionally switch order under certain circumstances, they are not super rigid. For example:

in navajo, the sequence n-s-ooh becomes sinooh, the sequence d-s-ooh becomes sidooh. When prefixes switch around in order like that, it is  called metathesis, and doesn't happen willy nilly, only under special circumstances.

One last thing, polysynthetic languages have very strang looking verb entries in a dictionary. You can't list a verb just by its infinitve like in French or English. Here is a sample navajo verb entry

To play

Outer prefixes: na

Inner prefixes: none

Classifier:0

Conjugation: short vowel, s-perfect

Stems:

I: né

P:ne'

F: neehl

R: neeh

O: né

Notice one very strange feature about Najavo verbs, they do not have one stem, but 5, and each must be memorized when learning the verb (there are some patterns though). Also, the verb entry details how the verb conjugates, and what prefixes it goes with.

Greatbuddha (talk) 02:26, January 14, 2014 (UTC)

Thanks so much! Polysynthetic languages really seem interesting, I'm eager to see where this takes me!

Tee Seven (talk) 02:00, January 15, 2014 (UTC)

Okay, after doing some work in my conlang journal (I hope to upload some results soon), I've gotten a basic scheme of verbs down but one thing leaves me stumped.

How do I add nouns without defying the polysynthetic/templatic-ness of the language? Of course, I it would be easy to add subject, object, indirect object, etc. slots and add inflections that define person but what if I need to say something other than I, You, We, He, It, etc. How do I incorporate it?

Tee Seven (talk) 01:44, January 19, 2014 (UTC)

Polysynthetic nouns
Polysynthetic languages have allot of approaches to nouns. Nouns are very rarely that complex in morphology (eskimo languages being an exception), typically, nouns will only be marked for posessor and occasionally for number. If polysynthetic languages mark their nouns for case, there are typically only 2 or 3. Most will use noun incorporation to indicate objects of verbs. For example, take the English word "hunt". One can incorporate a noun to make the word "bear-hunt" as in "we went bear-hunting". Both templatic languages and word mashers frequently leave a space to place a noun on the verb (eskimo and navajo do not, though), and frequently the form of the noun changes during incorporation (the noun might be abbreviated, like bear would become br or something.) Also, noun incorporation lowers the transitivity of a verb"we hunted bears" is transitive "we bear-hunted" is intransitive you can't say "we bear-hunted bears." Noun incorporation on an intransitive verb will reduce it to a 0 verb "rain fell" to "it rain-felled".

Polysynthetic languages frequently mark nouns for posessor, though.

(yup'ik) angun: man anguteka: my man angutenka: my men anguteten: your man anguteci: yall's man/men angutetemek: your man (accusative).

(navajo) amá: mother shamá: my mother namá: your mother yamá/bamá: their mother.

The noun posessor markers are frequently similar to the verb subject-object aggrement endings. The ending "nka" in yup'ik is also used to indicate a first person singular subject to a third person plural object.

Some of the most alien polysyntehtic languages will have almost no simple nouns, and all phrases will be relative clauses. For example, to say "the women lights a fire", the translation would be "she is a woman she fire-lights". Some polysynthetic verb stems will automatically mark the number of the subject without prefixes, for example, the najao verb "kai" means they(more than two) go without any prefixes, or the verb stem will mark the shape of the object, for example, the verb "to carry (a flat object) is different than the verb "to carry(a liquid). It is very rare for polysynthetic languages to explicitely mark subject and object at the same time.

Greatbuddha (talk) 15:13, January 19, 2014 (UTC)